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  #1  
Old 05-06-2012, 04:30 PM
Aztecha Aztecha is offline
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Default Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond question

Alright, my field consists of Sanguine Bond, 2 Death Cultists, 1 Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker


My friend has 2 Ashnod's Altar, 2 Essence Warden, 1 Spawn Sire of Ulamog, 2 Saproling tokens [produces by 1 Saproling Cluster]


now, he's gained infinite life due to sacrificing the 2 tokens for ashnod's altar to use that 4 mana to put into play 2 Eldzrai tokens then sacrifice those 2 fresh tokens for 4 mana to do it over and over again, while he gets 2 life for each token coming into play and generating infinite life.

Now my turn I play Exquisite Blood, no response to so it goes onto the field as normal

Then I Sacrifice a Death Cultist, because i make him lose 1 life and I gain 1 life the Exquisite Blood and Sanguine Bond start triggering a infinite loop. now my question here is he says since I trigger the infinite loop I automatically lose the game because I can't stop it but he can make infinite tokens to gain the lost life back in response to my abilities. but he also says that once I "initiate an infinite loop I instantly lose." and that "my abilities never play because I start the infinite loop and I'm no longer in the game after I start it."
How does this work exactly? He said that if 2 players have an infinite loop going in the game at the same time it's considered a draw, but because he's responding with something and mine can't stop, wouldn't I technically win because he's constantly using an activated abilities VS my trigger abilities?

Last edited by Aztecha; 05-06-2012 at 04:34 PM. Reason: Didn't have the specific card out yet to clarify question/topic
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  #2  
Old 05-07-2012, 02:23 AM
efinmiller efinmiller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztecha View Post
...while he gets 2 life for each token coming into play and generating infinite life.
There's a rule out there that says you can't repeat a series of non-mandatory actions an infinite amount of times. You can offer a shortcut, stating how many times you wish to repeat these actions, but you have to pick a number you can represent.

Quote:
716.1b Occasionally the game gets into a state in which a set of actions could be repeated indefinitely (thus creating a “loop”). In that case, the shortcut rules can be used to determine how many times those actions are repeated without having to actually perform them, and how the loop is broken.
The last part implies the loop must be broken. In a tournament, if you weren't to break the loop at some point, you'd be penalized for slow play.


Quote:
now my question here is he says since I trigger the infinite loop I automatically lose the game because I can't stop it but he can make infinite tokens to gain the lost life back in response to my abilities. but he also says that once I "initiate an infinite loop I instantly lose." and that "my abilities never play because I start the infinite loop and I'm no longer in the game after I start it."
How does this work exactly? He said that if 2 players have an infinite loop going in the game at the same time it's considered a draw, but because he's responding with something and mine can't stop, wouldn't I technically win because he's constantly using an activated abilities VS my trigger abilities?
As far as your mandatory triggers are concerned, here's this rule:

Quote:
716.4. If a loop contains only mandatory actions, the game is a draw.
The only thing I know for sure is that you can't loose this game. Either your opponent looses the game because your mandatory triggers deplete his life, or it's a draw because he keeps repeating his life-gain loop.

If I were a Judge (which I'm not, I may be missing something, and I realize this is a casual game) but I'd probably rule that you win since his actions aren't mandatory and all he can do is stall.
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Old 05-07-2012, 04:57 PM
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Seras Seras is offline
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This is actually a really interesting situation, figuring out the various stack manipulations that are possible gave me quite a headache lol.

It totally does come down to a judge ruling because as efinmiller pointed out, all your opponent can do is clog the stack, at some point he has to stop and then your triggers will keep resolving until he's dead.

but ya, i'm not sure if this would be your win or a draw.

I'm leaning towards draw.
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:12 PM
efinmiller efinmiller is offline
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I checked w/ some others, and they said you win, Aztecha. Since it was a casual game, I guess he could just keep stalling until you scooped. But in a tournament setting if he did that, he'd get a warning for slow play, if not DQ'd for stalling.

They equated this to being targeted w/ a Lightning Bolt when you only have 3 life left, and just never passing priority.
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:31 PM
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Seras Seras is offline
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im not sure the comparison is valid, since 'not passing priority' is literally stalling...it's refusing to take a required action to let the game progress.

in this case, the opponent is taking legal actions, and more importantly, they are not trivial actions..they are actions that are keeping him alive.
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:40 PM
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So i checked with a level 1 judge and he said that if a judge was called over, the judge would ask the spawnsire player to give a set number of times he's going through his loop, because his ability has to be triggered and yours is mandatory.

so you do win the game.
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Old 05-07-2012, 08:45 PM
Aztecha Aztecha is offline
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Thank you kindly for replying to my thread, and yes it is a casual game, but this leads me to ask, where did my friend get the idea of "if you do an infinite loop you lose automatically."
So in both tournament standards and casual standards I would win because he's prolonging the game with responses to counteract my effect?
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Old 05-07-2012, 09:09 PM
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"prolonging the game" doesn't really come into it.

if a loop is not mandatory, then it's not infinite: you have to state how many times you want to do it.

you can set it to 20 billion, but you still have to set a real, finite number of iterations.
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Old 06-11-2012, 04:49 PM
Kazzong Kazzong is offline
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So a loop with exquisite blood and sanguine bond will not make a player lose? I was told that any loop of mandatory actions, with no option to cease, would make the player lose. Hm... I am really confused...

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Old 06-11-2012, 06:52 PM
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104.4b If a game that's not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a "loop" of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don't result in a draw.
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